Getting Beyond Bored

Interview with Josh Horwatt, Founder of Beyond Bored

What was your own education like?

I think my education was really two educations. I had my school education and quite honestly I don't know that I got very much out of that, other than learning the 3 Rs as they say: Reading, Writing and Arithmetic and not very well because I don't think I'm very good at either of those and any of those. But I think my real education took place in a few unique circumstances that I went through in my life.

So, I would say number one was when I was 16, I got in big trouble in high school and my parents didn't really know what to do with me so they sent me on an Outward Bound trip and I spent two weeks in the Canadian wilderness paddling a canoe with a bunch of other troubled youth, troubled boys and we had to make camp every night and cook our dinners and sleep in tents and use the bathroom in the woods, and that was a really intense experience for me. And I knew at the time that it was a great experience but it didn't really unfold to me what kind of education that was until later on down the road and I realized that, that gave me my first real dose of self-confidence as a boy. I went through all of these experiences that were really challenging and really difficult, and I never had that opportunity to push myself and find out how much I could really deal with.

I remember there was one part of this trip where we had to, it's called “portage”, we had to lift our canoes over our shoulders and walk it across land when you want to cross from you know, one lake to another and it happened to be that this portage was about a kilometer and a half long and these canoes were not light at all, and I remember being really afraid of doing this because I knew how much it was going to hurt and how painful it was going to be but there was no option. We had to do it. I lifted it up and I made my way across this kilometer-long mud pit. It was this very muddy trail and it was hard to get across. I was sore and in pain afterward but I felt so good about myself that I could do this and I'd never had that opportunity to really push myself like that. So, I constantly look back at that experience as being one of the most important educational experiences I've ever had.

The other one was just after high school. I had met in school this man who was the great-grandson of Charles Darwin on one side, and Lord Maynard Keynes on the other, and he was this eccentric English guy who used to go and make films in the outback in Africa and he would bring along a group of guys with him to kind of help him with the menial labour tasks that, he had arthritis and he couldn't set up camp and stuff like that. So, I went on this trip with him and a few other guys and we spent six weeks driving across four countries in Africa, sleeping on the ground underneath the stars, cooking our food over the fire and just generally looking for all kinds of adventures. And, although it wasn't quite the same as Outward Bound in terms of the labour of it, being in a completely different country in a completely different environment and just having really ourselves to rely on, because this old man that we were with was really like one of the kids, that also was an incredible learning experience actually with how to get along with the group and how to work through all kinds of problems and challenges and you know there's more, but some of those took place after school so I won't call those part of my education. I mean, my education is ongoing. It never stops but I really look at those two experiences as being really critical, much more so than being in school or any particular class.

In your opinion is it possible to have both these experiences in one environment? How do we create that for our students if we assume that those two are valuable?

That's a great question Nati and I've asked myself that many times. I think that in my work as an educational therapist that's what I'm striving to create with each kid that I work with because I know that really when it comes down to it, it's not about the academic experience so much. I really don't think that that's what our lives are about and I don't think that that creates a lot of meaning in our lives. I think when kids are trying to understand what the world is about, they're not looking at their textbooks or their math class or their science class and I think that if they happen to be blessed with a really phenomenal teacher it's because a teacher understands that there's something that goes beyond the particular curriculum that they're learning and they're able to help give those kids some sort of insight into life that they want.

So, to answer that I think that there are lots and lots of little things that people can do. I think the first thing that schools or teachers or institutions can do, is first understand that it's not about the content that they deliver. It's about the relationships they create with other people. When you're working off of relationships and you're looking at ways to improve those relationships or help people become better at relating to other people and relating to themselves, most importantly, you'll find lots of little ways that you can approach that would accomplish the same thing that you would get in the outback in Canada.

Of course, some of the physical challenges I think are really important as well. Some of that sense of adventure and danger is really important and that's not something that you can get in a classroom necessarily. So, that part I'm still looking to figure out how we can recreate here in the education system. Have you come across anything that seems to do that?

No. In fact, your story reminded me of an organization that I participated in, called National Outdoor Leadership School which recreates the same thing. I think it started with young adults however now they do these expeditions for professionals and for organizations that are wanting to create this intense environment outside of a work, workspace or school and it's a really tough experience and the idea is to really confront your own limiting thoughts and go beyond what you think you're physically capable of and, as well as what you think you can mentally endure, and I don't know how to recreate that in the classroom.

I will say that an added benefit that I think might be increasingly important is of unplugging. If you're out in wilderness the likelihood of being able to be connected is quite low and I don't know that kids are used to that. I mean, maybe there are pockets, but most students that I see now are constantly in communication with everyone, with their peers, with their teachers, with their parents and I don't know how strong those social ties are necessarily even though they're constant.

That's a great point and I think as much as we rail on technology and kids being addicted to screens, we also forget that going past whether it's blue light that's hurting them or lose ability to focus and concentrate. We also forget that they also don't get quiet time to step out of communication and kind of step out of their head for a little bit and experience things around them quietly and I think that that is an incredibly important space to be able to cultivate and I think a lot of adults are realizing that. I mean, we see a lot of meditation becoming very prevalent and people taking time to quiet down and I think it's harder for kids to do that or to get that, to regulate that time to themselves so you're absolutely right.

What do you think is a purpose of education?

That's also a good question. I think it's unfair to put on school everything that education should be because life is education and it's not all going to take place in school and school is also just a container for a lot of education that's going to happen organically - that happens out on the recess yard or between students or in between classes or those conversations that take place between kids while the teacher’s back is turned and writing on the board and that's not something that we can regulate or codify or curriculumize or whatever.

However, given that kids spend a tremendous amount of time for the first eighteen years of their life in school, it is really important for us to understand what education is and what it should be and the time that they are with those teachers, what is it that they should be focusing on? And I think more and more that it's really less about the content that is delivered to them right now and I think the overall purpose of education boils down to the old philosophical adage of “know thyself”. I think we're all going through life and every single one of our most important purposes is to understand who we are and how we fit into the world, and how we operate, and where we belong, and what we have to give, and to be connected with you know, our subconscious and our internal world to connect that with our external world. And I think that lots and lots of kids have no vocabulary for this kind of thing at all. I think it's foreign to them.

It's funny, my wife was telling me about this show that she was watching last night about some Netflix show. Girls are locked up or something like that and she was talking about how there was a psychologist who was sitting with the girls and she told the girls to put their fingers on their necks and feel their pulse. the psychologist said something like “This is you” like “Meet yourself. This is your existence. ”. She was saying how a lot of these girls started crying and I realized that though many kids don't ever enter this realm of discussion or talking or thinking. It's just foreign to them. How sad is that that there are people that are so disconnected from themselves that don't have any kind of vocabulary or inner internal dialogue with themselves about who they are. I think that leads to a lot of pain or confusion or unhappiness in life.

So, I think that first and foremost, education is really about helping children develop the tools to communicate with themselves and understand themselves and then you know a little bit of math is important. Literacy is tremendously important. We've sacrificed a lot of literacy and kids need to learn how to read and write and communicate much better than they do now. That can't be overstated. That fundamental ability to connect with yourself really exists only when you have a vocabulary when you have the ability to think big ideas and the only way that you can develop that is through being exposed to other thoughts and ideas and communication and reading. I think that you know, literacy and know thyself.

To your point about knowing yourself and figuring out how to, teaching is not the right word, but how to build, how to create that in the classroom, I have seen some organizations that are creating assessments for social-emotional intelligence and awareness and kind of getting students thinking about what skills they are good at and where their interests lie so they can kind of nudge them in a direction. I'm curious what your thoughts are on those. The ones that I've seen are basically online tools that students work through on their own. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that and also what I struggle with is this idea that kids are able to answer those questions when they're really young and whether it's too soon to be assessing them on those things when they haven't had an opportunity to explore.

Yeah. Well I don't think it's ever too soon to start assessing kids on those things because as soon as a baby is born they're relating to their world socially. So, you know it all needs to be in line with their age and their developmental stage but it's never too soon. My concern is that the most fundamental part of learning is active engagement. No learning takes place if you're not attuned or interested in what you're learning. So, and I find that online tools do not create a great atmosphere for active engagement. You might have some kids who are really interested in that content or whatever it is that they’ve seen online but most kids tend to tune out especially because they're so used to having much more engaging games or shows or whatever it is, apps that they use on those same screens. So as soon as you turn on some educational technology for them that is asking them questions and they have to click multiple choice boxes, they're usually tuned out and even if the EdTech company is savvy enough to have little you know, games or animations along with it, usually it’s mostly shtick.

Let's really create that sense of engagement and more importantly if we're talking about creating social-emotional awareness tools, well social-emotional is all about interpersonal engagement or maybe it is self-reflection but it's kind of ironic that we're trying to teach that through a computer where a person doesn't have to interact with anyone else you know, it seems very contrived to have that kind of, to be teaching that sort of thing with the computer.

In my work, I find that I'm able to accomplish a lot with kids first and foremost because I create a relationship with them. In fact, when I meet a new student, whenever I work with a new student, I tell parents that I'm not going to do any academic work with your kid for a while and you're going to see me playing games and doing things that don't seem like they're worth your money but I have to create a really strong connection with them and the only way I can do that is to just hang around with them and get to know them and that needs to happen organically. It's not like I have a little “here's my five-minute get-to-know-you game and then let's move on”. I really have to understand them as a person and they have to understand me. We have to build some level of trust before we can push into other areas that are difficult for this person so I think that one-on-one relationships are the key to teaching that kind of thing. Without that, I'm sure you can have some measure of success.

I wouldn’t say you know, scrap the program. It's worthless but I would say that it reminds me of when, when school started adopting iPads a few years back and saying that the iPads were going to revolutionize learning and the iPads were going to be the solution to everything because now all the books would be on the iPads and everything would be interactive and the kids would love it and it would be so engaging and they would all become little geniuses and that's not what happened. The iPad wasn't the solution and I don't think in the social-emotional realm that computers or online curriculum will be the solution.

I think they can maybe be, maybe be somewhat of a helpful tool but I mean even in yours and my experience together working together with Teen Startup Academy I think that so much of what we accomplished with that was because we didn't have a textbook. We didn't have any articles for kids to read. There was no online content for them to get through. It was extremely one-on-one. It was very up close and personal but because of that, I think that they accomplished a lot.

Yes and just to provide a little background, Josh and I co-founded Teen Startup Academy along with a couple other colleagues where we helped high school students launch businesses. It was a seven-week after school program. We mentored them and guided them through the process of launching their idea that meant getting customers gaining traction and every student came in with a different idea so it took a lot of effort to find the right people to come in and give them advice on the industry, to have them listen to their own ideas and to guide them from idea to teaching in front of investors and a large group of people in the Silicon Beach area. And what I remember about you Josh, is that the students that came in, that you brought in, were just fully on board because you were involved. So this point that you made about trust - that students can engage fully and really open themselves up when they have this relationship with an adult and another person in their life that really sees them.

Those kids that you brought in, they knew they were known by you when they were in the room, so that was wonderful.

Yeah, it's important, it's really important. I think that everyone there though understood that need. I mean, I think that that was kind of core even though maybe we hadn't stated it explicitly. I think everyone fundamentally understood that and that's why I think it worked so well.

Yes, Yes, I agree. So, in your opinion what do you think education is getting right, right now?

You know what, it works. It serves its intended purpose and I think people who really delve into understanding what the intended purpose of education is and this is maybe where what I believe takes a little bit of a conspiratorial bent. I think education does an incredible job of getting it right. We do have a public school system that manages to educate to some degree the vast majority of the children in the United States. I think that the way it was set up and by the people who set up an education system, they understood that they did not want to create young scholars, they did not want to create independent thinking young minds and we don't do that. So I think the education system works very well. I think that most people misunderstand what that public education system was designed to do and I think that if you ever have an experience with stepping into an elite private school that trains some of the future elites of this country, you'll see the stark differences between those schools and in public school and you can start to understand what the purpose of public schools are. But I think Nati what you mean is like what are we doing well.

You know, we do literacy kind of well, not, not very well, not as well as we should. I think a lot of the curriculum, a lot of the education has suffered but I think that Common Core has some pretty good elements to it and I think maybe, if it sticks around and it doesn't get switched out in the next ten years, it'll probably or hopefully make a good impact you know.

I'm not really good at forecasting these things and I don't pay super close attention to them but I have seen Common Core math. I work with a lot of students who have Common Core math and I really like the way that they present math. It really does make you think a lot more about numbers in math. So if every element of common core is well thought out like the math then maybe there is a little bit of hope for some of the academic parts of our current education system.

What are the top three things that you'd like to pass on to your children or that you live by?

Well okay, well, let's start with this: I have three children. My oldest is a boy. He just turned 12 on Sunday and I have two girls. The next one is ten years old or actually 11 years old; she just turned 11 recently. I'm forgetting all their ages because they all just had birthdays recently and my youngest just turned seven.

There's one thing, one consistent thing that my wife and I have always taught our kids and has paid off tremendously and I hear this from people around me constantly and I see this between them. From the time that they were old enough to understand words and had siblings, we drilled into their heads one thing over and over and over again and you can even test my kids if you run into them on the street and say “What's your job?” and they'll give you the same answer. So we always said to them “Your job is to take care of your brother and sister” over and over again, “You have no other job but to take care of your brother and sister. There's nothing more important than taking care of your brother and sister. There's going to be lots of people in your life. Nobody's going to be more important than your brother or sister” and this stuck with them and they know it like all we have to do is look at them and say “Are you doing your job?” and it clicks and I think more than that, more than this just being like a repeated phrase is that they've learned that they really are a cohesive unit and they really take care of each other.

I can trust my older son or my older daughter who are sometimes forgetful and they're still kids and everything to really look out for one another and sometimes when they fight at home when they're able to kind of like let down their guard and they bicker and stuff like that like kids do, I always hear that when they go to other people's houses or when they're with my parents or they're out somewhere, these kids look out for each other like parents and they're incredible so, I can say that that's one thing that we've taught them well. There's lots of other things that we've tried to teach them and hopefully some of them will stick and be good but you know that's one thing that we deliberately decided on and I think that we succeeded with.

Wow, that's, that's really powerful.

I'd like to hear about your organization, Beyond Bored. How did it come about?

Okay, sure. I started Beyond Bored in 2015 after kind of wrapping up ten years of working in schools and in the classroom. I had finished my Master's in Special Education and Educational Therapy and I'd been working with some private clients before then but I decided that I could do what I do best much better if I was working on my own and it was also kind of a challenge to myself that I felt like I had to get out from under working for a salary and working underneath a bureaucracy that I really criticized a lot and felt like there were a lot of problems with education but I had to step up and do something about it.

So, I didn't start my own school but I did start my own private practice. I'm an Educational Therapist and I guess in short really what that means is that I work with kids who have problems in school whether they're related to having a learning disability or some social-emotional problem or anything they're not functioning the way they should be in school and parents bring me in to help kids solve these problems. So, Beyond Bored came out of this fundamental belief that no session that I have with a kid should be boring. I started creating these little challenges for myself to make sure that every session would be fun and interesting and I had a good friend of mine, a business mentor also helped me come up with the name and that's where it came out of.

So any session I approach I really believe that A) it needs to be fun and memorable. Nobody's going to learn anything if sessions are boring and tedious and  2) it really needs to be about what we were talking about earlier - that it needs to provide meaning and value to a kid's life and it's not just about their academics. It's not about them getting a high grade in school so my practice is really oriented towards working with building up character and personality of children along with helping remediate whatever academic challenges they're having as well.

Got it. Yes, and I love the name.

What other projects are you working on and what challenges are you taking on with Beyond Bored or outside of that?

Okay, so that's a good question because I have been building up a new project with Beyond Bored. You know, ever since Teen Startup Academy, the idea of working with kids in a more significant way than academics, or even the one-on-one work that I do with them but I feel goes far beyond academics, I've been looking for a new way of working with groups of kids and it all kind of ties together with what we were talking about - Outward Bound or National Outdoor Leadership School - and also some things in the media currently you know, events that have happened.

So, I work with lots of boys and I see common things among these boys. A lot of them don't have a vocabulary or a language of what it is to be a boy and how to be a boy and a lot of them don't have the direction or the guidance that they need to be a boy, and sometimes it's because fathers are very busy and not very present in their lives to teach them those things. Sometimes it's kind of societal it's because they are in school and school doesn't provide them with that kind of education. School is more about academics so they are lacking certain things. Sometimes it's how to communicate with other people. Sometimes it’s self-confidence and I think we've seen lots of examples of what happens when, when boys don't get what they need as boys, when they're depressed or when they are lacking good mentors or when they're ignored when they feel like they are invisible.

So, I'm working on a program called “Beyond Bored Boys”, that's the working title for now and I'm looking to create something that's you know, I guess the best way to describe it would be like an outward and urban Outward Bound type program so some of it would create physical challenges for them so they can start to build their own strength and power and some of it is also social emotional growth as well so they can they can learn how to become responsible and competent and disciplined young people as well, and hopefully grow into really amazing men.

That's great. I'm excited to hear more about this program. Where can people find you if they want to look up Beyond Bored or enlist your services or learn more about you and what you're working on?

The easiest way to find me is my website www.beyondbored.org. Yeah, that's really the best way, you know, look me up on Facebook as well, Beyond Bored. It's there and you can reach out and I'm happy to talk to anybody.

Great, thank you so much Josh and this has been wonderful and I'm excited to hear where Beyond Bored Boys goes.

Beyond Beyond

Josh Horwatt

Music: www.bensound.com